Last Updated: 5 May 2005
BOB SCHAUER's E-Mail.
In a message dated 5/4/05 9:18:00 PM, bschaue@pacifier.com writes:
Hi Judy,
Thanks very much for responding to my email. I would very much like to provide you any information I have. I have extensive information that could be added to the "Rott" family page - at least the descendents of Elisabeth Maier of Kassel. Would you like some, all or none of that? If so, what format do you want me to follow? I can give you Gedcom files, Word files, or PDF...
The other thing I can contribute is the information that pertains to the Rott family in Hunspach, Bas-Rhin, France. As I said, I have information that will conflict with your information. However, I have photocopies of the actual film that should resolve any doubt in anyone's mind about my information. Do you want copies of that, or just the information itself? If you want copies, can you handle jpeg? If not, how best should I send you that information? I have been working with Tom Stangl on this information from the film, and I would not have been able to obtain this information without his help. If you can handle jpeg, I could just forward you my emails we have exchanged on the Rott family.
I also forwarded Tom some information on the Hoffer family. Would you like that too? I have a few records from the Landenberger family as well from Elsass. BTW, Georg Landeberger's wife, Barbara Rott, is NOT the sister of Martin Rott. This is quite plain from the marriage records in Hunspach.
Also through my Grandmother Lydia Schauer, I am a descendent of the Wolff family, which apparently came from Rountzenheim, Elsass, France. However, I have done no research on that, other than what is available through GCRA or the GRHS. I can provide you information on descendents there too. But I did not see whether you had any posting in particular for that family (I note that your web page has referenced that family too).
My grandmother, Lydia Schauer (born Alexander), had several lines of ancestors that came from that general area of the lower Rhine, particularly Elsass (present day Bas-Rhin). You already know about the Rott family (Hunspach, Elsass) and Maier family (Ehrstadt Baden). She is also a descendent of Hieb family, which came from Heuchlehiem, Pfalz (only a few miles north of Elsass), the Herr family (Ingolsheim, Elsass), and of course the Alexander family (from Rott Elsass - this is near Wiessenburg, Elsass). I think it was no accident that after leaving the lower Rhine, my Grandmother's ancestors married individuals - while in the Glückstal colonies - who had a common ancestry, that is they were descendents of people from this general area. This ironic in that she thought all of her ancestors came from Württemberg (only 50% did - most of the others came from the lower Rhine region).
I was told by one of my Grandfather's relatives born in Hoffnungstal (Odessa), that the "dialect" of some of the people from Neudorf, Glückstal and Bergdorf differed from that of people from Hoffnungstal (dominated by people from Württemberg). It was explained to me that because these three towns had a heavy influence from the Pflalz, Elsass, and lower Baden area (basically the lower Rhine), that they "talked differently" as compared to other towns in the area (I cannot personally attest to this information - but it was told to me by people who actually were born and lived there). It makes sense to me that people who had similar backgrounds, tended to marry each other. I am not sure other researchers have noticed this phenomena.
Let me know how much information you want.
Thanks
Bob Schauer
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Wednensday, May 4, 2005 11:55.37 PM
Detailed Huspach film information
Hi Judy,
I will sketch out some of the information I have at hand from the film. I have found the following children of Martin Rott of Hunspach:
- Salome Rott, *27 Aug 1786, Hunspach, Elsass
Parents: Martin Rott and Maria Elisabetha
Witnesses: Georg Neiß "the younger" (probable brother of Maria Elisabetha & uncle of Salome Rott)
Maria Barbara, widow of Georg Nieß (probable grandmother of Salome, and mother of Maria Elisabetha)
Salome, wife of Martin Saum of Seebach
- Balthasar, *9 Oct 1789, Hunspach, Elsass
Parents: Martin Rott and Maria Elisabetha
Witnesses: (hard to read) Georg Nieß
Martin, son of Martin Rott? (BTW, there were more than one Martin Rotts in the record)
Margaretha, wife of Georg Rott
- (unknown, likely female), *28 Aug 1792, Hunspach, Elsass (the scribe forgot to write the name down - it is totally blank!)
Parents: Martin Rott and Maria Elisabetha
Witnesses: Georg, son of Michel Nieß
Magdalena, wife of Micheal Nieß
Barbara, daughter of Friedrich Rott
- Martin, *23 Jan 1804, Hunspach, Elsass
Parents: Martin Rott and Maria Elisabetha, born Nießin
Witnesses: Martin Rott (not the father)
Jacob Frayer
Elisabetha, wife of Martin Findburger (? unsure of this)
I could not find birth records of any other children. The records from this period are very sporadic, probably due to the French revolution (in fact the records of Hunspach are more complete than the other towns in the area I have looked at!). Children born between 1792 - 1804 are likely unrecorded. Any children born after that might be in the civil records which I have not reviewed.
From the above, there can be no doubt that Martin Rott's wife was Maria Elisabetha Nieß. I have found their marriage record, dated 4 Jan 1785. It states the following (extraction and translation by Tom Stangl):
Sind Martin, Bernhardt Rott, des alten ehlr [ehelicher] sohn, und Maria Elisabetha, Georg Nieß, geweßen Burgers hinterlaßen ehlr Tochter, p.t.p. Foutz in der Kirche copuliert worden.
Martin, the oldest legitimate son of Bernhardt Rott, and Maria Elisabetha, legitimate surviving daughter of former townsman Georg Nieß, were married by [? p.t.p.?] Pastor Foutz in the church [in Hunspach].
I also have the marriage of record (Maria) Barbara Rott & Georg Landenberger. According to the extraction and translation by Tom Stangl, it reads as follows:
der neun und zwantzigsten Juli [29th July 1789]
Ist Georg, [unreadable word] seiner alter 24 Jahr [24 yrs old], mit [with permission of] Vatter [FATHER], Georg Landenberger, Burger und Zimmermannmeister [master carpenter] zu Hoffen, mit [with] Barbara, legitimate single, [she is] 20 years old, [with permission of] FATHER Theobald Rott, Burger und Ackersmann [townsman & farmer] here [Hunspach] p.t.p. [Latin abbreviation for post tribus proclamationes - after three banns were posted], were married.
Die Eheleuthe [Eheleute - the married people] [signatures]
Georg Landenberger
Barbara Landenbergin [note she signed with her married surname]
die Zeugen [the witnesses]:
Georg Nieß, Schultheiß von Hoffen [mayor of Hoffen]
Michel Wehl, Burger von Hoffen [townsman of Hoffen]
Michael Rott, Burger von hir [from Hunspach], ein Bruder, von der Hochzeiterin ihren Vatter [brother of the bride's father]
Michel Hauck, Burger von hier, ein Schwager von der Hochzeiterin ihren Vatter [brother-in-law of the bride's father]
Note that Georg Landenberger, and therefore possibly the Landenberger family, is from the nearby town of Hoffen (I was unable to find any birth record for Georg Landenberger in Hunspach).
From these two marriage records, it is clear that Barbara Rott is the daughter of Theobald Rott, and Martin Rott is the son of Bernhardt Rott. Therefore, they cannot be siblings but are probably cousins. The actual birth record of Barbara Rott (wife of Georg Landenberger):
- Maria Barbara, *26 Dec 1769, Hunspach Elsass
Parents: Theobald Rott and Dorothea
Witnesses: Michael Rott
Barbara, wife of Bernhardt Rott (this probably is not the father and mother of "our" Martin Rott)
Barbara, wife of Wendel Rott
I also have a birth record from of the children of Georg Landenberger and Barbara Rott:
- Anna Maria, *8 May 1790, Hunspach Elsass
Parents: Georg Landenburger and Barbara
Witnesses: Friedrich Rott
Barbara, wife of Micheal Sch?
Eva, wife of Caspar Rott
You may be wondering the identity of Dorothea, wife of Theobald and mother to Maria Barbara Rott. She is also a Rott! Here is the marriage record of Theobald Rott and Dorothea, again courtesy of Tom Stangl:
den 10ten Januar und nach 3 Maliger Proclamations copuliert worden Theobald, Hanß Theobald Rott, Burger ehefr Sohn, und Dorothea, Hanß Martin Rott, der Altern, Burgers ehrfr Tochter.
On 10th January [1764] and after 3 posted banns, were married Theobald, legitimate son of Hanß Theobald Rott, townsman [here], and Dorothea, legitimate daughter of Hanß Martin Rott, the older, townsman [here].
Now on to Martin Rott. He is a problem because there are two (actually three, but the third one died at birth) Martin Rotts born to a Bernhardt Rott during 1755 - 1770. Based on the age, and expected birth (around 1762) I have concluded that this must be his birth record:
- Johann Martin, *8 Aug 1760, Hunspach Elsass
Parents: Johann Bernhardt Rott and Susanna Maria Rottin
Witnesses: (very difficult to read - I am going to ask Tom if he can read these)
There is an earlier birth record to a Martin Rott to a Bernhardt Rott. However this is from a Bernhardt Rott who was having children for many years prior to this, including some surviving sons. From the marriage record above, it would appear "our" Martin Rott was the oldest surviving son, therefore ruling out this earlier Martin Rott. Tom Stangl has extracted and translated the marriage record of Martin Rott's parents:
Den [the] 7ten [7th] Maÿ [May 1754], seÿnd [should be sind] noch dreÿmahliger proclamations [after 3 posted banns] copulirat worden [were married], Johann Bernhardt, Joh. Martin Rott, Br[Burger] alhir, ehfr. [legitimate] Sohn; und Susanna Maria, Samuel Rotten [ignore the "en" which is another form of ending used when writing the surname of the bride's father], hiesig Herren Schultheÿß [here Mr Mayor, or just plain - the village Mayor here - usually an appointed, not an elected post], ehfr. [legitimate] Tochter.
You may have now noticed something unusual. Both Barbara Rott (wife of Georg Landenburger) and Martin Rott (husband of Maria Elisabetha Nieß) have parents born Rott. For Martin we have Johann Bernhardt and Susanna Maria. For Barbara we have Theobald and Dorothea. I believe that Martin Rott and Barbara Rott may be first cousins. Martin's father's father is "Johann Martin Rott". Barbara's mother's father is "Hans Martin Rott". These two may or may not be the same person. If I can find marriage and birth records for their parents, I may be able to tell. But I have not done that yet.
Nor have I yet researched the Nieß line. There is a good chance that many of the Nieß family is located in nearby Hoffen - therefore the Nieß records we are looking for may be there instead of Hunspach. We know that a Georg Nieß was the "Schulz" of Hoffen from the marriage record of Barbara Rott and Georg Landenburger.
Also, on your web site (http://www.remmick.org/Hoffer.Home.Site/Page10.html#I), you have information that Martin Rott was born about 8 Feb 1767. This, I believe, is incorrect. I recollect seeing that birth record. But the father was not Bernhardt Rott. I did not make a copy of it, but I will check out who that person is next time I view the film. I just remember that the birth was a little too late, and the father was not right.
I will be sure to getting you more information as I find it.
Thanks
Bob Schauer
Following is a repeat and found on another page:
In a message dated 5/3/05 10:00:59 PM, bschaue@pacifier.com writes:
Hello Judy,
am a descendent of Elisabeth Maier, born 30 Dec 1853 Kassel. She married Johann Jakob Alexander, born 9 April 1838 Bergdorf (yes, there was quite an age difference, and that is something that has provided some family stories!). Elisabeth Maier and Johann Jakob Alexander had a son, Johannes Alexander, born 27 Nov 1883 Klein-Neudorf, who was my great grandfather, and the youngest surviving son of his father, Johann Jakob.
Elisabeth Maier was the third wife Johann Jakob Alexander (his prior wives were, 1 - Christine Maier [no relation to Elisabeth] born 19 Jan 1835 Hoffnungstal, and 2 - Magdalena Kirschenmann born 14 Apr 1839 Neudorf). Johann Jakob Alexander was the second husband of Elisabeth Maier (her first husband was Johann Jakob Eberhardt, born 12 May 1848 Kassel).
This information in the previous paragraph is NOT available in the records, but was known to my Grandmother, Lydia Alexander, the granddaughter of Elisabeth Maier. Elisabeth Maier died in my grandmother's household when she was a young girl, at the time of the Bolshevik revolution and the subsequent civil war, between 1917-1920). In other words you would not have been able to find this information out until recently because it is a part of our verbal family history (it is available on the new Glückstal book and the attached genealogy included in the CD's).
I give you all this so you can see my interest in the Rott family.
Since much of my grandmother's lineage comes from Elsass, I have been researching one of the ancestral lines of Elisabeth Maier, the Rott family. You will find Elisabeth Maier on your Rott family page, the daughter of Kathrina Rott, born about 1816 in Glückstal and Jakob Maier, born 1 Apr 1815 Ehrstaedt, Baden, Germany.
I have information about the Rott family records of Hunspach, Elsass. In fact, I have the film checked out at the local FHC, and am in the middle of my research. I have information that conflicts with the information on your web page. I am wondering if you would like to see it (I have copies of various records I could email).
I am working with Tom Stangl to sort out this information.
Would you like to see this information?
Thanks
Bob Schauer
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